4:00am - Philosophy on MSN - I think I'm saved!

I think I may finally have something to write my essay on! Cheers to 4am philosophizing on msn :-)


Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
unfortunately, modern socialism is becoming very similar to anarchism
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
"fight the power"
Jesse --> 30 days to Israel!!! [phantomphilosopher.blogspot.com] says:
quite true
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
in any case, economically, I don't think comunism can work on a large scale..
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
its useful for kibutzim-style communities, but that's about it..
Jesse --> 30 days to Israel!!! [phantomphilosopher.blogspot.com] says:
it takes work and a true understanding
Jesse --> 30 days to Israel!!! [phantomphilosopher.blogspot.com] says:
it's easy on a small scale, but not impossible on a large scale
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
when you factor in human psychology, greed is always there..
Jesse --> 30 days to Israel!!! [phantomphilosopher.blogspot.com] says:
truly, I don't expect it to ever work large scale
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
there will always be one person to screw it up
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
then you have the issue of people who work harder deserve more than those who don't work at all..
Jesse --> 30 days to Israel!!! [phantomphilosopher.blogspot.com] says:
sadly, I don't see any political party attentive to the needs of canadians
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
(with exceptions of the disabled, etc..)
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
out of curiousity, what do u think about the issue of some people working harder than others?
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
do they deserve more?
Jesse --> 30 days to Israel!!! [phantomphilosopher.blogspot.com] says:
depends on what you classify as working harder
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
if, for example, 2 people do the same job..
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
one does 20 hours a week, and the other does 50 hours a week
Jesse --> 30 days to Israel!!! [phantomphilosopher.blogspot.com] says:
does the caretaker at york who works 10-10 everyday work harder than a neurophysicist?
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
should they both have the same standard of living?
Jesse --> 30 days to Israel!!! [phantomphilosopher.blogspot.com] says:
well, that's what marxist communism about - standard of living
Jesse --> 30 days to Israel!!! [phantomphilosopher.blogspot.com] says:
it doesn't say that everyone makes the same, it says that everyone makes what they need for their standard of living
Jesse --> 30 days to Israel!!! [phantomphilosopher.blogspot.com] says:
a single maintenance worker has a lower standard of living than a married one, etc etc
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
so does it allow for people to have 3rd world standards of living?
Jesse --> 30 days to Israel!!! [phantomphilosopher.blogspot.com] says:
no
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
or bill gates standards?
Jesse --> 30 days to Israel!!! [phantomphilosopher.blogspot.com] says:
and no - bill gates lives far above the necessities of life
Jesse --> 30 days to Israel!!! [phantomphilosopher.blogspot.com] says:
and undeveloped countries live far below it
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
ok.. so two single men, both work doing the same thing, but one works twice as long/hard as the other..
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
do they get the same 'pay'?
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
or does the guy who choses to work longer hours in order so that he can enjoy a big screen tv not have such an opportunity?
Jesse --> 30 days to Israel!!! [phantomphilosopher.blogspot.com] says:
if you understand marxist communism as a contract system - you still need to work to recieve pay
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
understood..
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
but can I choose to go above and beyond because I enjoy more 'extravagant' things than others do?
Jesse --> 30 days to Israel!!! [phantomphilosopher.blogspot.com] says:
no
Jesse --> 30 days to Israel!!! [phantomphilosopher.blogspot.com] says:
that's quite clear
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
people won't be happy in such a society..
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
for example..
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
I'm happy eating pizza and fast food..
Jesse --> 30 days to Israel!!! [phantomphilosopher.blogspot.com] says:
oh for sure people wouldn't be happy
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
its very cheap to produce, etc..
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
assuming food was an only factor..
Jesse --> 30 days to Israel!!! [phantomphilosopher.blogspot.com] says:
but what if I'm not happy with our "democracy"
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
I'd be happy with pizza and pasta, etc.. but most people in today's society want more 'fancy' foods..
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
if they want it, they should be able to have it.. assuming they work that much harder for it..
Jesse --> 30 days to Israel!!! [phantomphilosopher.blogspot.com] says:
ideally, such foods would be available not only to an elite
Jesse --> 30 days to Israel!!! [phantomphilosopher.blogspot.com] says:
try telling a kibbutnik that there's a part of the kibbutz that only certain people can go to where there's better food and more commodities
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
but someone who wanted a steak would require that there be a guy who raises cattle, another who slaughters the cattle, another who processes it, and another who cooks it..
Jesse --> 30 days to Israel!!! [phantomphilosopher.blogspot.com] says:
and that's how a kibbutz works
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
so u have 10 people working for the guy who wants a stake, but only 2 for the guy who wants some fries..
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
is that truly communal?
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
can I then ask, since I only eat (hypothetically) fries, that I have 8 servants working for me to make up the difference?
Jesse --> 30 days to Israel!!! [phantomphilosopher.blogspot.com] says:
hypothetically no - you're entitled to the steak just as much as anyone else is. if you choose not to exercize your right, that's your own choice
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
this is where a financial based society would make more sence..
Jesse --> 30 days to Israel!!! [phantomphilosopher.blogspot.com] says:
to some
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
it might be more ideal to try a spin on it..
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
give everyone $10000 / year.. spend it on whatever you want..
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
or again.. based on need
Jesse --> 30 days to Israel!!! [phantomphilosopher.blogspot.com] says:
that would certainly be interesting
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
but then u end up again with lazy people who won't be productive in their jobs..
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
since they know they're guaranteed "pay", why should they care about their work?
Jesse --> 30 days to Israel!!! [phantomphilosopher.blogspot.com] says:
for the betterment of society?
Jesse --> 30 days to Israel!!! [phantomphilosopher.blogspot.com] says:
I know it's idealist
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
the point is, unless humans become like robots, there is no way that communism can work
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
the will of the human is higher than intellect..
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
and the will of the human is driven by the need to (what they believe is for the) improvement of themselves in one way or another
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
which means the human will always want more something
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
more money, more spirituality, more friends, more books..
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
knowledge..
Jesse --> 30 days to Israel!!! [phantomphilosopher.blogspot.com] says:
if the will is higher than intellect, can one will to have mor intellect?
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
sure
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
that's one of my 'will's'
Jesse --> 30 days to Israel!!! [phantomphilosopher.blogspot.com] says:
I believe some want more intellect and it is for them that communism wourl work
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
what if I want more intellect than others..
Jesse --> 30 days to Israel!!! [phantomphilosopher.blogspot.com] says:
then you're a selfish bastard
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
not necessarily..
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
remember, people are competetive..
Jesse --> 30 days to Israel!!! [phantomphilosopher.blogspot.com] says:
true
Jesse --> 30 days to Israel!!! [phantomphilosopher.blogspot.com] says:
now you're getting into social contract theory
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
in the science world.. which I'm more familiar with..
Jesse --> 30 days to Israel!!! [phantomphilosopher.blogspot.com] says:
which is about escaping the nature of humanity - hobbes, locke, rousseau - they all saw human nature as something to be escaped by entering into a social contract form of government
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
all important pieces of intellect are shared and published..
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
but, everyone competes to be the First to make an advancement in a particular field of science
Jesse --> 30 days to Israel!!! [phantomphilosopher.blogspot.com] says:
right
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
if they're not the first, they don't get recognized for their work..
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
and as a result, they will to be the first..
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
you could consider it selfish..
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
but you could also argue that their work ends up getting wasted if they're not the first..
Jesse --> 30 days to Israel!!! [phantomphilosopher.blogspot.com] says:
all true
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
I don't necessarily agree that democracy is the best way to go about things either..
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
in some cases, it is..
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
but in any case, its absolutley necessary to have an economic system that's somewhat based on capitalism
Jesse --> 30 days to Israel!!! [phantomphilosopher.blogspot.com] says:
I don't think it's absolutely necessary in all societies - but I think for us, it's important to recognize that we are a capital based economy
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
as far as history goes.. it has always been a system based on how hard you work, or how much you earn..
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
ideally, you should be respected based on your talents and how hard you work..
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
not because of your money
Jesse --> 30 days to Israel!!! [phantomphilosopher.blogspot.com] says:
so do we sit back and say "this is the way it's always been, so be it"
Jesse --> 30 days to Israel!!! [phantomphilosopher.blogspot.com] says:
I don't like the status quo
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
do u agree that someone should be respected based on their talents and the amount of work they do?
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
or alternatively, that everyone should be treated equally, as a number, but not a face..
Jesse --> 30 days to Israel!!! [phantomphilosopher.blogspot.com] says:
I think everyone has different talents
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
agreed..
Jesse --> 30 days to Israel!!! [phantomphilosopher.blogspot.com] says:
and you should be respected based on how you use your own talents
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
agreed..
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
to me.. I'd be interested in meeting people with a certain set of talents to help me in my life.. but you'd likely look for help from people with a different set of talents..
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
which is normal.. otherwise, there would be no individuality..
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
for example.. I like a certain kind of music
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
and a certain type of food.. etc.
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
I wouldn't care to go to the person who makes the best steak..
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
not if suddenly.. everybody wanted a steak, there is more demand on the steak guy..
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
he has to work harder..
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
as a result, he deserves more respect for his hard work
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
otherwise, people won't get equal opportunity to their right to eat steak
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
since the steak guy will no longer have motivation to cook for a lot of people..
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
so.. what would a communist society do in such a scenario?
Jesse --> 30 days to Israel!!! [phantomphilosopher.blogspot.com] says:
hmm
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
they could get more people making steak
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
but they're not necessarily talented doing that..
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
there will still be demand on this first guy
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
why should he have to work harder than everyone else?
Jesse --> 30 days to Israel!!! [phantomphilosopher.blogspot.com] says:
it's a tough scenario
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
I'll tell you what I'd do..
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
tell everyone that if they want steak, they have to work as hard as the guy who makes it..
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
so.. as a result.. some people will decide they're not willing to do that..
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
the demand on the steak guy goes down..
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
and those willing to work harder will
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
what did we ultimately create?
Jesse --> 30 days to Israel!!! [phantomphilosopher.blogspot.com] says:
an idealistic model?
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
if you call it that..
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
I call it capitalism
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
those who chose to work harder in order to enjoy those 'finer things' that are in higher demand.. do so
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
I just instituted a system of supply and demand
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
and a system of 'cost'
Jesse --> 30 days to Israel!!! [phantomphilosopher.blogspot.com] says:
but there should still be a base line which provides basic needs for all
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
as well as inflation
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
ok.. so everyone gets shelter and 2 basic meals per day..
Jesse --> 30 days to Israel!!! [phantomphilosopher.blogspot.com] says:
how do you guarantee that EVERYONE's basic needs are cared for?
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
but if you want a TV, you have to work
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
if you're talented like the steak guy.. u can get a big screen
Jesse --> 30 days to Israel!!! [phantomphilosopher.blogspot.com] says:
so your basic needs are provided for by the government, but if you want more you need to work more for it
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
sounds fair..
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
no?
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
I never heard of any government saying that they should let the homeless rot on the street
Jesse --> 30 days to Israel!!! [phantomphilosopher.blogspot.com] says:
but if they don't do anything to get them off, then it basically amounts to the same
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
not necesarily..
Jesse --> 30 days to Israel!!! [phantomphilosopher.blogspot.com] says:
everyone also needs to have exactly the same opportunity to work more for more
Jesse --> 30 days to Israel!!! [phantomphilosopher.blogspot.com] says:
which we don't have
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
if all the facilities are provided, and the homless still chose not to accept them.. what more can you do?
Jesse --> 30 days to Israel!!! [phantomphilosopher.blogspot.com] says:
very few homeless choose to live on the street
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
agreed..
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
but those who don't stay in shelters, do chose not to..
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
if homeless shelters were rejecting people who truly needed it, I'm sure we'd be hearing about it..
Jesse --> 30 days to Israel!!! [phantomphilosopher.blogspot.com] says:
they do
Jesse --> 30 days to Israel!!! [phantomphilosopher.blogspot.com] says:
and we do hear of it - shelters are overcrowed - not nearly enough room or money
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
I'm not arguing about overcrowding and money
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
but do they tell people that they can't come in ?
Jesse --> 30 days to Israel!!! [phantomphilosopher.blogspot.com] says:
sometimes
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
that needs to be fixed..
Jesse --> 30 days to Israel!!! [phantomphilosopher.blogspot.com] says:
indeed
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
alternatively..
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
instead of having government run shelters.
Jesse --> 30 days to Israel!!! [phantomphilosopher.blogspot.com] says:
BUT! more importantly - shelters aren't the same baseline standard of living that a home and money for food is
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
shelters provide home and food.. unfortunately, they're not up to the standard of living of an average family that makes $50000/year
Jesse --> 30 days to Israel!!! [phantomphilosopher.blogspot.com] says:
exactly
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
but that average family works hard for it..
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
the argument really is how much should they get for free?
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
I think 50 square feet and 2 meals is enough to survive..
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
as well as some clothing.. in order for them to go out and make an effort to improve their standard of living..
Jesse --> 30 days to Israel!!! [phantomphilosopher.blogspot.com] says:
that's a whole separate thing
Mr & Mrs DJStealth says:
ya.. different path anyway..